Throw the book at him

[Propnut69]

I hope they throw the book at this lowlife. It's people like him,that add to our problems with the gorge.

http://www.greenriverstar.com/articl...0347095607.txt

EDIT* Title Was EDITED for Inappropriate content (SuperD)

[SuperD]

Do you think $230 fine is throwing the book at him?

[Kokaholic]

I would have to say no. thats nothing. I would say the guy is Dumb! they need to yank is fishing privlidges and a whole bunch of other things.

[Propnut69]

Do you think $230 fine is throwing the book at him?

Given the crimes this guy committed,,,,in no way do I think 230 dollars was enough of a fine. Maybe something like a 1000.00 dollars fine and revoke his fishing and hunting privileges for 5 years. This was not a mistake of reading the rules wrong,this guy knew what he was doing was wrong.

[skookum9]

I'm glad to hear they caught him but I sure wish they had done something more than a fine. I don't know if such a system exists but wouldn't it be great if he could have been sent to some marine biology/ecology course that he had to take and pass before he could fish again. Or perhaps even before he was allowed to drive again. I think a good education about the harm he is doing would go a long way toward the real goal here. I don't think that taking some of his money away probably taught him much except to be certain to not get caught next time.

[SuperD]

Speeding tickets are more than $230 in CA. Carpool lane violations, $370! This is barely a slap on the wrist and why there are so many repeat offenders.

[gonefishing]

I like skookum9's idea.

This idiot should have to attend 2 behavioral modification trainings.

I would revoke his license for fishing permamently until he completed a wildlife fishery / Biology course. The perpatrator would need to pay a fee and the cost of the course.

The last task would be to face a guantlet of 50 of the madest Flaming Gorge fisherman. We could all use our least favorite fishing poles to wack him. This is what I call training for the stupid. (behavioral modification training)

[skookum9]

Thanks for your support, gonefishing. And thanks for the added suggestion of him running the gauntlet. I know that was sarcasm but I'll bet if he really knew how upset other fishermen would be about this, it might go a long way toward his understanding.

I was just thinking about the idea of a class for law breakers and wondered why I've never heard of something like that. I know that's the sort of action now taken for duii recipients here in Oregon and I've heard that it has been at least somewhat effective. I don't think taking money away from a person is very effective at controlling their behavior, it is very effective at controlling their caution to prevent being caught the next time, or even in the first place. And comparing the cost of a citation in WY with the cost of a citation in CA is completely out of line. The average income difference between the two places is probably significant, not to mention the fact that we don't know if this guy works as a partner at a major law firm or if he flips burgers for a living. Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix anything.

I do believe that an informed public is a more cooperative public. I am not the most knowledgable about how to get this sort of thing done so I will pose to all of you this question. What if a group of members such as this KKF were to get together on an idea like this and cause such an idea to be implemented in each of our states? And I'm not saying that there wouldn't still be some sort of a fine but in fact some of that fine could go toward paying for a class such as this. I actually think that a class that not only taught the impact of a persons illegal actions but also taught effective ways to fish that are legal. It wouldn't be bad if it also included an introduction to volunteer fishermen that would help set a good example.

Would any of you be willing to get behind a push to implement this sort of a thing? Do any of you know how to get something like this started? I know that there are several members on here that are involved in law enforcement in one form or another, do you know anyone that could help us with this? Maybe you don't think it's a good idea. If you like it though, and you have any clue in the world how to make it happen, whats say we give it a try. Let me hear your thoughts.

[SuperD]

I do believe that an informed public is a more cooperative public.

I don't believe that guys that avoid check stations on purpose need to be anymore informed. Drunk drivers go to classes, drunk drivers get their licenses revocked and they still climb behind the wheel drunk and proceed to drive. There has to be stiffer penalties for folks that don't get it. What I don't understand is why the stiffness of the penalties flucuate so much. Catch a silver salmon by mistake when you are king salmon fishing and the fine is $1,000 - $1,500. But do something deliberately and pay only $230.

[skookum9]

You still have to consider the differences from one state to another. In this state, penalties vary from county to county. A wealthier county has a tendancy to put up heavier fines. Also, a county that has more violation troubles has a lot more severe punishments. And I think there is a difference between someone trying to get away with something and someone who actually knows why what they are doing is wrong. Even if I'm wrong, wouldn't it be worth the risk to find out? And I don't think you can compare alcohol abuse to fishing violations, they are sort of a different beast, I believe.

[SuperD]

Simply stated, criminals don't need hunting and fishing licenses to enjoy their sport. They know what they are doing when they do it. If you think spending $ millions of dollars providing "classes" would change that, you're entitled to that opinion.

[Bduck]

Any classes that these people are sent to are only taught of the different violations that the rest of violators are in there for. In my opinion, its a place where they talk about each others violation and someone always will say "I would have done it this way". They get better ideas on honing there skills breaking laws. To them its a real joke. We as tax payers will see a increase in taxes for some new program to teach these unlawful wits where the money always gets funneled to another project. Last time I checked, people become adults at the age of 18yrs. Depending on the capital crimes committed and what state, some kids under 18yrs are prosecutted as adults. I understand the bond between parents and their offspring, but when my 2 sons became adults, they were told if you do the crime, you will do the time. Don't expect me to give up my life trying to bail your ass out. This is an unselfish act happening everyday all over this country. We all get caught up in very small little tiffs with the laws such as excessive speeding down the roadways, but we eventually pay for it. I can remember my fareshare of tickets, but when it was digging to hard into my pocket. It took me to stop this. This guy who commited the no no should have heavier penalties. Dig a little bit into his pocket where he feels it, plus not only strip his fishing priviledges but take his hunting priviledges as well for the next 5yrs. Next time he gets any violation, strip him of lifetime priviledges. Usually these guys get caught and have to spend time in the slammer.

[skookum9]

And what if some concerned citizen fishermen volunteered to teach this course in an already existing county building so we could keep the cost down. I would quickly volunteer for such a task. And like I said, use part of their fine money to pay for this. It certainly doesn't have to cost millions of dollars. I also believe that taking away a driver's license is much more effective than a fishing license. Not that they can't still drive but I think it is easier to regulate such abuse than it is for fishing and hunting licenses.

I agree that people are often fools and make poor choices, but I also believe that giving the benefit of the doubt is a real part of being a good Christian and a responsible person. Many times I have stated in my posts on this site that I have a real problem with the law enforcement in this state. SuperD, a huge, and I would say a majority, of the reason I have such a problem with our system here is your very example of a negative attitude about how people are just criminals. I myself have been unjustly accused of being a criminal by our officers on a number of occasions and I promise you that I am a law abiding citizen. I know and understand that when you see the worst everyday, you begin to expect the worst. But I also know that this is part of the training that our officers receive and it is also why I am so opposed to them. I would like to see this training stopped.

There are times when people commit a crime that they don't know they are committing. Most of the time, I am sure that they do know it. But I also believe that most of the time, they don't realize the depth of the impact of what they are doing. I really don't believe they believe what they are doing is harmful to our sport. Legal or not, they enjoy the same sport too and if you make them think, they may very well "see the light." Heck, I wouldn't be against having a course like this for all sportsmen to take, (volutarily), just so we could be better sportsmen in the field. You are right that you will not change some people, they are true criminals. But how unfair to lump all violators into this category and how unfair to not want to protect our sport in any sensible way possible. I know a system like this may not work. I know that something like this may never happen to even get a try. But I think it deserves at least a little more thought than a simple "I hate people" sort of attitude. Understand, the very crime this individual committed is also the very crime in our fishing world that I am absolutely the most opposed to. Invasive species through criminal activity has helped to severly damage some of my personal favorite stomping grounds. If I had caught that individual, he would have been happy to face the police and a monitary fine after I got through with him.

Bduck, I understand what you are saying, and you may very well be right. I don't agree about the money part but hey, I can't speak for everyone. I will ask you this though, if these systems really don't work, then why are we still doing them and why are we still hearing that they are experiencing some success? You certainly present a good argument, and may very well have it nailed down correctly. I'm still going to present it to the people I know in my area that may be able to influence this and see about their reaction. My goal is only to reduce the number of violators, especially of this sort of blatant activity.

Sorry about all of my ranting and rambling. I'll step down off my soapbox now.

[MMDON]

Maybe, if the Wyoming Game and Fish Dept. wasn't so cute with the rules allowing live bait on one side of the state and not on the other there would be less of this going on. It's stupid to allow bucket planters in any part of your state.

[gonefishing]

MMM

Alot of truth to what you said on wyoming rules for bait.

I THINK THAT THERE IS ALOT TO BE SAID FOR THE POSITIVE IMAPCT FROM FORUMS OR SPORTSMAN FISHING CLUBS AND SO ON. MANDATORY MEMBERSHIP AND SOME KIND OF REQUIRED ATTENDANCE AROUND REAL SPORTSMAN CAN GO ALONG WAYS.

I WAS RASIED, WITH THIS ONE RULE. DON'T GET CAUGHT. THAT WAS FOR HUNTING AND FISHING. ONE DAY I HAD A TRASFORMATION. I BECAME A SPORTSMAN AND NO LONGER WAS I A MEAT HUNTER WEATHER IN THE WATER OR ON THE LAND. I WAS RAISED AS A WILD LIFE BANDIT, BUT I CHANGED AND RAISED MY CHILDREN, WITH ETHICS, MORALS FOR LIFE AND AS SPORTSMAN.

AS SKOOKUM9 IS INDICATING, THERE ARE BENEFITS TO VIOLATERS BEING AROUND A GOOD INFLUENCE. I BELIEVE THAT THE LOSS OF PRIVIALGES FOR BREAKING GAME LAWS IS A MUST, BUT POSSIBLE EARNING THEM BACK THOUGH PARTICIPATION IN COMMUNITY SPORTSMAN ACTIVITIES WOULD BE A GREAT WAY TO TRY AND CHANGE PEOPLE. IF THEY DONT WANT TO CHANGE. CUT THERE PRIVIALGES FOR LIFE.

JUST HOW DID THOSE BURBOT GET IN FLAMING GORGE. BY AN INTENTIONAL PLANT OR SOME KNUCKLE HEAD. YOU JUST NEVER KNOW! WHAT EVER, THEY WERE NOT LAW ABIDING SPORTSMAN WHO CARE ABOUT AND RESPECT WILD LIFE AND AMERICAN SPORTSMAN TRADITIONS.

[skookum9]

Well said, gonefishing, and great work on making your own life better and those lives of your children as well.

I attended a fly tying show in Albany today and managed to bring this conversation up with both a representative from our fish and game department and a state trooper. They both thought that this was a fantastic idea and would love to get behind it and push it forward to the powers that be. But they both were quick to point out that they didn't think it would work unless we could establish a list of reliable, responsible voluteers first before we began to impliment this program. Their concerns were that we would quickly find a decrease in willing participants to help in the teaching and mentoring for these violators. So I'm asking others of you out there if this is something that you would be willing to back. And since Oregon is the state I live in, it is where I will begin my search for volunteer's. Are any of you up for supporting an idea like this? I know it would be an inconvenience but think about the benefit it may be bringing to your children and grandchildren and other future fishermen and women across our country. I'm not saying jump on it without thought, I'm just asking you to give it your consideration. I'm not even sure we can convince this state to go along with it. But I know that if we don't try, it's a guarantee that it won't happen. How many out there would be willing to give this a go?

[Propnut69]

Maybe, if the Wyoming Game and Fish Dept. wasn't so cute with the rules allowing live bait on one side of the state and not on the other there would be less of this going on. It's stupid to allow bucket planters in any part of your state.

Mute point in my book,it doesn't matter if they allow live bait in one body of water ,and not another. The regs for the gorge are very clear when it comes to using live bait. The regs are clear about transporting live bait and /or game fish.Like I said before this guy knew what he was doing was wrong.This wasn't a case of misinterpreting the rules.

[MMDON]

Mute point in my book,it doesn't matter if they allow live bait in one body of water ,and not another. The regs for the gorge are very clear when it comes to using live bait. The regs are clear about transporting live bait and /or game fish.Like I said before this guy knew what he was doing was wrong.This wasn't a case of misinterpreting the rules.

I certainly didn't suggest in any way he "misinterpreted the rules." I suggested that the importance of the law was greatly diminished or "muted" by Wyoming's lax interpretation of the importance of using live bait hence encouraging bucket planters in other parts of the state. If anything I would say the lack of severity in the fine bears my point out very clearly. While you may not like my interpretation, I feel that part of the problem is being created by the Game and Fish laws and enforcement in Wyoming.

[skookum9]

I see your point, MMM, and agree with you. But I would like to see this sort of practice ban across the entire U.S.. It's not that I have any knowledge as to the harm this causes in other waters out of my area, it's the very fact that when it is allowed in some area's, it leaves a lot of doubt for some the reallity of the harm that it causes. I don't want to tell anyone in other areas what they can and cannot do but it seems that it has become necessary considering the impact that mentallity is having on my own fishing waters. I think you are dead-on in your reasoning.