The Evolution of Utah's Fish Species

[SmokeOnTheWater]

I really have enjoyed the Forum topics this past winter. They have really helped pass the time here in Snow & Ice Country. It's refreshing to read about what other states are doing with their fishing programs, laws and such.

This leads me to these burning questions: Are Utah fish inferior to the fish in other states? Or, are the biologists educated differently here?

The single reason behind these questions is the legal use of baits. In Utah, it is illegal to use "kernnel corn". Why????? Utah fishermen are told that our fish are unable to digest kernnel corn and eventually die from eating it yet other states legalize it. Therefore, Utah fish must not have evolved yet. Is it really a digestion problem or do some people release fish that are hooked too deep?

The other illegal bait in Utah is "live minnows". Why????? Utah fishermen are told that fisheries are ruined or destroyed by illegal transplant of aquatic species not native to certain waters. Similar to the Zebra & Quaga Mussel campaign now going on around the West, creek chubs are another problem species in many, if not all, of our waters. As a kid growing up in PA, these chubs were a source of entertainment for hours in the small stream running through my parents farm. I really can't believe anyone would care enough to illegally plant a fish that would create so much enjoyment for a young boy like me. Utah DWR poisoned Strawberry Reservoir and it's feeder streams 20+ years ago and the chubs are back. Utah DWR introduced Bear Lake Cutthroat Trout (a voracious eater) into this reservoir to control the chub population since the poisoning effort failed. The cutthroats just love it! Anything you throw in that lake that looks like a chub will get looked at and most likely bite and give you some great action.

My point is, live minnows are a big fish producer. I've heard rumor that some people still use live minnows in this state but it's only rumor. Have I witessed this personally? No! If live minnows were allowed to be used in the same body of water they are taken from, I don't see a problem. It's legal to do this with crawfish, why not minnows?

Is this something that Utah fishermen should persue with the DWR? I would really like to hear from other fishermen and biologists (Utah among other states) about this.

Thanks for your reading patience!

[Trophy Taker]

I have often wondered why the DWR doesn't offer live minnows with the caveat that only the DWR can sell them. Since the UDWR has limited funding it seems to me like a way for them to make a few $$ for the fisheries. It really irritates me on powell that you can't use the live shad from the lake. Why? They are already in there (native). What exactly is that going to distrupt?

[AFDan52]

I have often wondered about this subject. It doesn't make sense that I can buy Shad pieces or whole shad at the store and they are already in the water at Willard bay , Yet I cannot have any in my posession DEAD or ALIVE. Just what is the point that they are trying to make?

[skookum9]

I think the whole kernel corn is easily explained. The hull of a kernel of corn is undigestible by most any critter, including us humans. The difference between us and the fish is that even when we are little, our intestinal tract is large enough to pass this matter unobstructed. A fish on the other hand, is much smaller and can find it quite impossible to pass these hulls in numbers. You may ask what this has to do with tipping your hook instead of blatant chumming and my answer is simply that it is easier to regulate and control violator's that way. If you don't allow the use of corn at all, it is a lot easier to catch someone using corn for chumming simply by the fact that there is no excuse to have any corn on the water at all. I would suspect that the law enforcement in your state has experienced difficulty getting the culprits to cooperate with anti-chumming laws and that this is likely where this law of yours comes from. I've not seen it all by any means but from what I have seen, this was a problem in the state of Washington for a while. Many people I saw were still using corn to chum with well after it was widely known that this will kill off the fish population. Fortunately, I haven't seen it done now for many years.

You've asked about the use of live minnow's for bait and I must admit that this is a sore subject for me. I've often debated what I would do if I ever caught someone using live minnow's in Oregon waters. Would I be kind enough to turn them in? Or would I simply choose to dump them in? In my youth, I suspect I would have chosen the latter. The use of live minnow's has helped to damage and destroy many otherwise valuable water's here in Oregon. The people who do such things are typically from out of state, usually one where this tactic was legal and regularly practiced. Unfortunately, when this happens it changes the life in the lake in ways that these people never seem to think of. Even if only a very small percentage of these little minnows escaped the hook and were able to breed in the water, it doesn't take long for them to become a problem. Their presence can cause the existing fish populations to suffer, often by interfering with nesting habitat. This can cause a drastic die off of the fish the rest of us have enjoyed until some perpetrator/violator came along and messed things up for all of us. This is a very invasive way of fishing waters that is both illegal and unnecessary. If it were the only way that fish could be caught, perhaps I could understand it more. I see it only as a lazy man's way of catching fish. Someone who is unwilling to put forth the effort to find success using acceptable methods. You are correct that it is easier to catch fish this way. Are you not able to find success without them? If not, I do hope you will ask other's for their help in catching you more fish. Most of us would gladly help someone out if they needed it. If you can catch them another way, then why risk destroying fishing for others just because it is "easier"?

I do hope I did not offend anyone, I did not mean to. But like I said, this is a sore subject with me. If you really want to know more about why this and the corn are bad ideas, do some research in to the biology and ecology of our lakes and streams. At the very least, call your local fish and game management department, hear what they have to say, and then try to understand what they are telling you. There are many times when I disagree with fish and game but I do try to understand their logic. Not that I always succeed but I do try. If after careful observation and study you still find that you disagree, then try and plead your case with them and see if you can convince them of your position.

The one thing I will ask here is that you never try this method here in Oregon. I don't mean to be rude here but I will tell you now that I will not hesitate in taking action to see this stopped. I am not a big fan of our law enforcement but, I do believe in the rules and that they must be enforced. I have a friend that works for fish and game that has the numbers of various state cops on speed dial for just such matters and I would call him in a heartbeat. I especially believe in this law against live minnow's, there is a good reason for it. I doubt that I did justice in my explaination but I do hope that it at least got you to thinking.

Best wishes to everyone in their fishing venture's. Keep a tight line!

[SmokeOnTheWater]

Well stated Skookum9.

I don't intend on violating any game laws in this or any state. I understand completely the intent of the DWR but when I read posts from other states "tip your lure with shoepeg corn" I have to wonder what is so damntastic about shoepeg corn. I'm glad you mentioned the chumming issue. As a teenaged boy in PA, it was common the walk the shorline of popular fishing streams and find open cans or piles of corn dumped on the creekside. A heavy rain would swell the stream and wash all this trash away. There and then it was more of a pollutant (eyesore) than giving it a secong thought about the danger it presented to the indigenous, aquatic species.

I appreciate the discussion and hope others find it educational even in states where these activities are legal. If it's legal where you fish, don't leave a mess for others to clean or damage the resource.

[SuperD]

Corn, illegal for trout but legal for kokanee. Kokanee are going to die, period. Here in CA, Kokanee lakes are not expected to have natural spawn as a rule. There are just a couple lakes that provide eggs for all Koke lakes in the State and it is a put and take fishery. Maybe Utah expects more of its fisheries to be self sustaining?

On the subject of minnows, that is also crazy here in CA, it is a body of water by body of water case. Legal at some, illegal at others.

[Trophy Taker]

Skookum9 - Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Certainly no one is advocating nor suggesting breaking any laws and being someone intimately familiar with our laws I to have no reservations about dealing with those who break them either. We know if you allow it on some bodies of water it’s only a matter of time before some idiot decides to be a “bucket biologist” and we end up them in all of the other bodies of water. Of course there is no way to control that crap anyway as laws only keep honest people honest. Years ago when I lived in Texas, Fish & Game was the sole provider of live minnows to the bait shops and when you purchased them you had to fill out a tag. I suspect this helped them track people down if the minnows showed up in an unauthorized body of water. I don’t remember the numbers exactly but it was a significant money maker for their fisheries and the more money they have the better the fishery and it's enforcement. Of course since Kokanee are planktivores all the minnows in the world won’t improve ones catch rate.

[skookum9]

First and foremost, I don't mean to imply that anyone of you is a law breaker, or that you are advocating for such. My intent was more one of spreading information but this being such an issue here in Oregon probably makes me come off badly and I appologize for that. I know that this is a really great forum of angler's looking to be better fishermen. I am certain that there are a lot of viewers to this site and that sharing information here is a good way to spread this information. I believe that the more people who are informed of these type of things, the better our fishing will be. Here in Oregon, we have lakes that have been plagued with minnow's and bass, both illegally dumped in our waters by people who either don't know better or don't care about our fishing. I'd like to think that it was that they simply didn't know.

Trophy, you are right that laws only keep the honest people honest. But honest people, and responsible fishermen do a lot to help keep the laws from being broken by others. From the fish and game guys and the state cops that I've spoken with, it is my understanding that honest and responsible hunters and fishermen are winning more battles against poaching than they ever could. They are counting on us to keep others in line simply by our presence. I'm usually not that observant of others and don't notice when they are doing stuff they shouldn't be, but my presence still helps make them behave if they know they are doing wrong. I have witnessed my pal from fish and game many times confront people who are doing wrong. One year we were incidentally snagging tiny little koke's but not hitting any that were biting, he saw another boat on the water that was putting these fish in their bucket without a second thought. He didn't write them a ticket or anything, he simply said that he thought they had poached enough of those little fish and that they should probably just pick up and leave if they don't want a hefty fine. They knew they had done wrong, he simply told them that some of us care about the laws. And without hesitation, they left and went home.

SuperD, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about the koke's going to die. If you are talking about why corn is legal for koke's but not for trout, I'm guessing that this is because so many people believe that corn is necessary to catch koke's with. I promise you that if people were heavily chumming corn in your koke lakes, you would notice it in the numbers that survive. I do not know why it works this way but corn is a major attractor to fish. I remember watching people chum corn when I was a boy probably 30 years ago, even though they had been told it was harmful and illegal. To a young boy it was impressive to see so many fish swim after all that corn. My father had to sit me down and explain to me all the damage that this activity causes and why it is wrong. Tipping is not the same as chumming, and I believe that if the fish and game people believed that the people wouldn't chum in desperation, it would not be illegal to fish with a tipped hook, on any water that allowed the use of bait. It is the probability of violators that makes them make it illegal.

For the benefit of those who fish in places that don't allow the use of corn, I don't belive corn is necessary. If you really feel the need to tip your hook you can even put a dob of paint on your hook and make it whatever color you want it to be. You can add scent to this dob of paint and viola, a tipped hook. I've seen people who've done this and swear by it. You can also use a small corkie and thread it on the line just ahead of the hook, this also works well. I've also seen corn tippers often out fished by those who don't put anything on their hooks. These fish are more simple than many of us give them credit for being.

[smokin' Kokes]

I've personally witnessed fishermen emptying their can of corn over the side into the lake at the end of the days fishing.
Caught fish that were just stuffed full of corn almost to the point of bursting. Even seen fish, mainly kokes and some rainbows floating on the lake surface, alive, but unable to submerge, because corn had fermented and produced too much gas in their stomachs. Left to die and pickings for the ospreys.

Corn is still legal in Washington St.

Most fishing rules have to be absolute to make it easier for fisherman to understand and follow them. Too many variations by body of water and trying to decide where bait fish came from makes any rules and enforcement impossible.
Wa. St. spring salmon rules are so complex this year that most fisherman will violate by omission and impossibility of comprehending. The springer rules are drastically changed on a yearly basis as the multiple agencies experiment with catch and user groups

[skookum9]

Well said, smokin', corn is a killer. Of course, while it does a lot of harm, I personally am still inclined to use it on koke's. Yep, I take a nice crisp koke fillet and lay it on the plate and put the corn right beside it and the pork-n-beans.


I too find the ever changing regulations to be more than a little complicated, and living near the border of two states makes it even worse. I feel great sympathy for those who live near two or three extra states. Too much legal mumbo-jumbo makes it hard to think like a fish.